I hate we are destroying another conference. I wish they would have gone with a relegation model with the MW. Brutal. That's college sports now I guess.
Let me explain it this way, (In my best James Earl Jones narration basso), "Everything you see exists together in a delicate balance. As king, you need to understand that balance and respect all the creatures, from the crawling ant to the leaping antelope. When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so, we are all connected in the great Circle of Life."
With the selections of Boise and Fresno, the PAC just eliminated any chance of Cal and Stanford ever returning. They are now gone for good unless the PAC gets folded en masse to the ACC as their western division, which is now highly unlikely.
You mean lowly academic institutions like Boston College, Syracuse, Virginia, Va Tech, North Carolina, N.C. State, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech and Miami.
Apparently your ACC knowledge is lacking. The ACC has many universities ranked in the Top 100 in the USA (quite a few in the Top 50). SonoranJeff gives us a list.
Clemson is pretty comparable to Oregon State as a Land Grant school. Academics is a red herring when someone wants to say someone else isn't good enough. What we have learned is that it is all about the money.
Actually, FSU is NOT an AAU member (this is actually why supposedly the Big 10 doesn't want them), I checked the AAU membership roster. Interestingly enough, the University of South Florida IS an AAU member. Hmmm. In any case. I went to grad school at an AAU and Tier 1 (R1) research school in the ACC. And being an R1 doesn't mean much. There are 146 of them including Oregon State where I also went. The ACC school I went to is a research juggernaut. FSU is not in the same research world (just as Oregon State was not). My point stands, to say that Cal and Stanford are in the ACC because of academics is drivel. They went for the money rather than take their chances. Do they view the four new schools as academically inferior to themselves. Yep. But, they probably had that view of the entire rest of the Pac-12 before also. And they were probably right. 🤣
If you look at the US News and World Report list of Top Engineering schools, you will find numbers 2, 3 and 5 in the current ACC. 2 and 3 used to be in the Pac-12. #5 is also an AAU. That was my graduate school. To find another ACC or former Pac-12 member, you drop to UW at #21. Why do I mention engineering? One because I admit I know more about it. Two because it is arguably the largest research funding discipline that also awards bachelor's degrees (unlike medical research for example).
I 100% agree. With this announcement WSU and OSU are keeping a brand, but accepting relegation. Any slim chance the departing schools would return to a Pacific Coast association in Olympic sports is over.
They spent over $100M to not fall farther down the relegation ladder. They won't sniff P4 TV money, but maybe they top the American ($7M per school). They should do better than the MWC TV deal, but this all "State" conference is Mountain West +.
I'd love for Stanford and Cal to come home. But I fear they don't want to be associated with the likes of Fresno State and Boise State. I hope I'm wrong.
Your Ducks got their AAU membership in the 1960s. Hard to say if they would be offered today membership today. Given a couple of schools have been added and all could be viewed as gaining membership to potentially join the Big 10, I think is fair to say that conferences are about the money, not the research. But, Universities like to pretend conferences are about the academics and research.
Stanford never will be joining this group of schools, but don't count Cal out. They are in major financial hurt with their athletics programs. Crazier things have happened.
WSU and OSU are both Land Grant universities. Just because you have an Ag focus doesn't mean you can't be a cutting edge university. OSU will be at the front of the robotics, data center and AI industries moving forward. Cal can't say that.
Not to mention right now, they depending on which ranking you look at, OSU has the top forestry school in the US if not the world. Oh, also a top ten online undergrad school for the last ten years and running. A working person's top tier university. Personally I kinda like a "State" conference of Land Grant schools.
The funny thing is, it looks like college football is headed in a direction where the football side of universities is a separate entity altogether. a corporation of sorts and mascot type operation where the schools get some yearly cut of the money pie but have no say on operations.. This is rapidly morphing to multi $billion industry status for select programs.
Exactly, if Cal and Stanford really were so interested in using their football programs as a means of maintaining an aura around their academic standing, they should just go full out Ivy League and not sully their skirts in the fetid swamp of the new NFL Lite that has come to be.
If you looked at the statements coming out of CAL and Stanford when they chose to join the ACC, they put an emphasis on a broad scope of athletics. They said that they wanted to compete at the highest levels in what are often called the Olympic Sports. Stanford has won the Learfield Directors Cup in many years. (Awarded to the university having the most athletic success across 15+ sports.) 7 ACC universities ranked in top 25 (including CAL). The highest ranked university in the new PAC12 is San Diego State at #87.
As the philosopher M Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try real hard, you just might find, you get what you need. Doo doot ta doo".
Love it. Moving forward. OSU, WSU, SD State, Colorado State, Fresno State, Boise State, all fun sports program, the competition between them is already good and soon to get great. Rising tide lifts all ships/boats. And, all schools provide a fun destination for a weekend trip.
Barnes said there is a three year plan (odd I thought). Demanded P5 status.
I doubt those four schools would jump without media already somewhat known. CW trying to enter college sports, so must be a much better deal than MW.
I personally don't like this, especially why dump this just before the Civil War? Last Civil War JS news screwed up our game. Why not keep this under wraps at least until next week?
The game was screwed up when Scholz decided to stab the remaining Pac 12 schools in the back anyway. This is positive news and should motivate the Beavs. It's being publicized, not "dumped".
This weekend will be the largest viewership for both OSU and WSU all year.
The national media will have this everywhere and turn eyeballs toward PAC games this weekend driving even more eyeballs to the games. Makes perfect sense.
The CW and Fox Sports were involved with the merger discussions.
Fox Sports is Boise States media rights holder. Boise holds the rights to and negotiates its home games separately from the MWC. The MWC has the rights to the away games.
I agree.....a lot of this has been cooking a while. Rumors have been floating around and there has been talk for months, I am sure. It is why Nevarez turned frosty the past month
Cal and Stanford are not going to be joining this new Pac-12. There is an academic prestige issue involved. They didn't want to join the Big 12 for that reason. Zero chance that Stanford would put itself in the conference with these Mountain West schools.
The ACC could implode, too. If Cal and Stanford had gonads they could have led the new Pac. Add SDSU, CSU, and perhaps choose hugh academic places like Rice, SMU, Tulane. They coulda been a contender!
With all the angst about whether Cal or Stanford would join a conference with Fresno State and Boise State, I wonder about two things. First, have they maybe learned a lesson that putting their own student-athletes through travel and logistic hell runs counter to their "student-first" mantra? And second, isn't league association only for athletics? What does playing baseball against Boise State have to do with academic reputations and partnerships?
Exactly. Snob mom dragging her kid away from the sandlot on the other side of the tracks, "Come away Reginald, you mustn't be seen playing with those ruffians! It's off to boarding school for you. Tut, tut."
I think Cal will be coming back to the Pac12 for sure, and possibly even Stanford. I have never bought into the 'it's about academics' argument. Reality is it sports, and they have become separated from each other, for better or worse. Thanks for the great news John, you just made a lot of Beaver and Cougar fans happy tonight!
I suppose the next question is, what's the media value of those 6 (for now) schools? What does Mr. Thompson (former Fox media guy) think? Enough to keep budgets balanced? I love keeping the PAC alive!
Thank you for staying on top of this, John! You and Wilner gave us a heads up almost a week before the event. This is what many of us thought made sense since the PAC12 breakup last year. Now, as you have suggested, buy some time with the NCAA and wait for the others to come to the PAC12 at the next realignment, perhaps with the help of the CW
Cal isn't coming back. Major donors have stated they would not give money if Cal is not in the P4. This refurbished Pac 12 media rights won't be as high as the P4 as well. So the money won't be there for Cal to sustain its large athletic department. But I'm very happy for OSU and WSU. I hope they can add 2-4 more teams and become the strongest conference it can be.
So we’re basically splitting into Mountain West A and Mountain West B? This is still relegation unless the majority of the teams in the new conference come from Power 4 stock.
LV has a good TV market, but UNLV hasn’t done a good job supporting its programs. I think schools have to be willing to increase spending, and they may not be willing as of now.
With this initial move it finally gives the PAC some leverage. Other MWC teams not wanting to get left behind would most certainly take smaller revenue sharing to get into the new PAC-12 (if the PAC had any mutual interest).
In a New York second, if the state of Nevada and more importantly, the $billionaiires who really run the state from the entertainment industry, believe a larger sports footprint would gain tourists and $$$, then you would see resources unimaginable, pour into the endeavor. Things can happen fast.
If the Pac12 is looking for more MWC schools, I would say Air Force would be better than UNLV. As an Armed Service Academy, they would bring a larger audience not tied to a geographic area like the other MWC schools.
Look at their ratings. Big market, small fish. Plus they're hundreds of millions shy in sports infrastructure and support. Just not going to happen. They get one more good season. Hope they beat Kansas. But after that the gig is up for the coach and their future. Sorry.
May be other MWC Schools including UNLV. But there may be issues with UNLV and UNR being tied at the hip through Nevada law. Don't think UNR brings anything to the PAC12.
I’m glad to see movement in this - things are looking up.
I hate we are destroying another conference. I wish they would have gone with a relegation model with the MW. Brutal. That's college sports now I guess.
You can see why Gloria Nevarez pushed away from the PAC12 a few weeks ago. She knew this was coming and didn't like it.
Let me explain it this way, (In my best James Earl Jones narration basso), "Everything you see exists together in a delicate balance. As king, you need to understand that balance and respect all the creatures, from the crawling ant to the leaping antelope. When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so, we are all connected in the great Circle of Life."
They did leave the MW with 8 members so there won't be rush to rebuild for the MW.
Don’t say “we” if you thought the Beavers and Cougars should go quietly into the goodnight that is G5 football.
No actual OSU or WSU fan would want that.
This is the outcome OSU and WSU have fought like hell to obtain, and positions them well for the future.
HUZZAH & AMEN!!!!!
The Mountain West likely will see if Montana, Montana State and possibly some of the Dakota schools are ready to move up and play at a higher level.
Idaho State is running the old Don Reed 4 receiver offense. They’d be a good addition.
I frequently post this: "Beavers > Leavers."
Let me add to that: "Arrivals > Rivals."
Now let's watch the Beavers and Cougs take it to Oregon and Washington this weekend.
Go Pac-12.
Think Cal & Stanford is 100% next move.
Academic standing is more important than athletics for those universities so I don’t see them returning any time soon
With the selections of Boise and Fresno, the PAC just eliminated any chance of Cal and Stanford ever returning. They are now gone for good unless the PAC gets folded en masse to the ACC as their western division, which is now highly unlikely.
Duke and North Carolina will never be in a conference with Fresno State and Boise State.
Ever.
And yet they took SMU.
That is correct, but on the flip side OSU and WSU don't have the academics to get into the ACC. So it wasn't going to work out anyway.
ACC Academics … outside of Duke it’s largely pretty mediocre.
You mean lowly academic institutions like Boston College, Syracuse, Virginia, Va Tech, North Carolina, N.C. State, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech and Miami.
Apparently your ACC knowledge is lacking. The ACC has many universities ranked in the Top 100 in the USA (quite a few in the Top 50). SonoranJeff gives us a list.
And FSU HAS the academics? 🤣
Clemson is pretty comparable to Oregon State as a Land Grant school. Academics is a red herring when someone wants to say someone else isn't good enough. What we have learned is that it is all about the money.
Florida State is an R1 Research Institution as well as an AAU member, so yes they do.
Actually, FSU is NOT an AAU member (this is actually why supposedly the Big 10 doesn't want them), I checked the AAU membership roster. Interestingly enough, the University of South Florida IS an AAU member. Hmmm. In any case. I went to grad school at an AAU and Tier 1 (R1) research school in the ACC. And being an R1 doesn't mean much. There are 146 of them including Oregon State where I also went. The ACC school I went to is a research juggernaut. FSU is not in the same research world (just as Oregon State was not). My point stands, to say that Cal and Stanford are in the ACC because of academics is drivel. They went for the money rather than take their chances. Do they view the four new schools as academically inferior to themselves. Yep. But, they probably had that view of the entire rest of the Pac-12 before also. And they were probably right. 🤣
If you look at the US News and World Report list of Top Engineering schools, you will find numbers 2, 3 and 5 in the current ACC. 2 and 3 used to be in the Pac-12. #5 is also an AAU. That was my graduate school. To find another ACC or former Pac-12 member, you drop to UW at #21. Why do I mention engineering? One because I admit I know more about it. Two because it is arguably the largest research funding discipline that also awards bachelor's degrees (unlike medical research for example).
Why did I pick on FSU? Easy target. 🤣
Please this may be the DUMBEST comment I have ever seen in this column.
We wish them well in all their future endeavors.
I 100% agree. With this announcement WSU and OSU are keeping a brand, but accepting relegation. Any slim chance the departing schools would return to a Pacific Coast association in Olympic sports is over.
LOL!! Sure. That is why a bunch of high level executives, supported by wealthy alumni, made the decision to spend over $100M.
They spent over $100M to not fall farther down the relegation ladder. They won't sniff P4 TV money, but maybe they top the American ($7M per school). They should do better than the MWC TV deal, but this all "State" conference is Mountain West +.
Love your opinion. But you are likely wrong. Its okay. We can’t always get it right
While I'm disappointed, if the Big 12 is considered P5, not sure how this new Pac 12 would not also be considered P5.
I'd love for Stanford and Cal to come home. But I fear they don't want to be associated with the likes of Fresno State and Boise State. I hope I'm wrong.
Boise State and San Diego State committed to and are on a path gain R1 Carnegie Designation. Both are R2.
They would then also need to step up even higher to obtain AAU memberships. That's not happening anytime soon.
OSU and WSU are not AAU members.
Your Ducks got their AAU membership in the 1960s. Hard to say if they would be offered today membership today. Given a couple of schools have been added and all could be viewed as gaining membership to potentially join the Big 10, I think is fair to say that conferences are about the money, not the research. But, Universities like to pretend conferences are about the academics and research.
There is no chance Cal and Stanford come home now. Not with Boise and Fresno in the conference.
Utah has never been comfortable in the Big 12
ASU is very tied to CA and didn't feel good about any of this
Maybe?
Football only members? UTSA, Tulane, Memphis?
Basketball only members? Gonzaga?
Go wild and reach into western Canada for University of BC and Alberta? Some Canada schools play in NCAA.
Interesting who the next two are.
I think Utah, BYU, ASU and UA make a lot of sense to bring back to the PAC12. They are geographically and culturally sympatico
Stanford never will be joining this group of schools, but don't count Cal out. They are in major financial hurt with their athletics programs. Crazier things have happened.
Agreed
Would be awesome, but those blue bloods aren’t excited about Fresno.
WSU and OSU are both Land Grant universities. Just because you have an Ag focus doesn't mean you can't be a cutting edge university. OSU will be at the front of the robotics, data center and AI industries moving forward. Cal can't say that.
Not to mention right now, they depending on which ranking you look at, OSU has the top forestry school in the US if not the world. Oh, also a top ten online undergrad school for the last ten years and running. A working person's top tier university. Personally I kinda like a "State" conference of Land Grant schools.
Great point. And I agree.
The funny thing is, it looks like college football is headed in a direction where the football side of universities is a separate entity altogether. a corporation of sorts and mascot type operation where the schools get some yearly cut of the money pie but have no say on operations.. This is rapidly morphing to multi $billion industry status for select programs.
Exactly, if Cal and Stanford really were so interested in using their football programs as a means of maintaining an aura around their academic standing, they should just go full out Ivy League and not sully their skirts in the fetid swamp of the new NFL Lite that has come to be.
If you looked at the statements coming out of CAL and Stanford when they chose to join the ACC, they put an emphasis on a broad scope of athletics. They said that they wanted to compete at the highest levels in what are often called the Olympic Sports. Stanford has won the Learfield Directors Cup in many years. (Awarded to the university having the most athletic success across 15+ sports.) 7 ACC universities ranked in top 25 (including CAL). The highest ranked university in the new PAC12 is San Diego State at #87.
Wouldn't be the worst thing to do.
It would certainly lower their cognitive dissonance quotient.
As the philosopher M Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try real hard, you just might find, you get what you need. Doo doot ta doo".
I’ve been anxiously waiting for your reporting. The Athletic is lacking
Chris Vannini @ The Athletic reported this 2 hours ago. But yes, JC is right on top of this too
Yahoo Sports posted about 8:30 pm PT. That doesn't detract from Canzano's perspective.
JC knew this day's ago which is why he and Wilner hinted at it on their podcast
If you don't have confidence to spill the beans, then you don't "know."
I know. That article wasn’t as in depth as I expect from John
Love it. Moving forward. OSU, WSU, SD State, Colorado State, Fresno State, Boise State, all fun sports program, the competition between them is already good and soon to get great. Rising tide lifts all ships/boats. And, all schools provide a fun destination for a weekend trip.
Barnes said there is a three year plan (odd I thought). Demanded P5 status.
I doubt those four schools would jump without media already somewhat known. CW trying to enter college sports, so must be a much better deal than MW.
I personally don't like this, especially why dump this just before the Civil War? Last Civil War JS news screwed up our game. Why not keep this under wraps at least until next week?
The game was screwed up when Scholz decided to stab the remaining Pac 12 schools in the back anyway. This is positive news and should motivate the Beavs. It's being publicized, not "dumped".
This weekend will be the largest viewership for both OSU and WSU all year.
The national media will have this everywhere and turn eyeballs toward PAC games this weekend driving even more eyeballs to the games. Makes perfect sense.
The CW and Fox Sports were involved with the merger discussions.
Fox Sports is Boise States media rights holder. Boise holds the rights to and negotiates its home games separately from the MWC. The MWC has the rights to the away games.
Lon plus CSU is playing CU in Primetime on CBS, and SDSU is playing Cal in the after dark window on ESPN.
I agree.....a lot of this has been cooking a while. Rumors have been floating around and there has been talk for months, I am sure. It is why Nevarez turned frosty the past month
Ridiculous. Myopia much? Long term planning trumps rivalry game news.
Agree. This is no time for self centered myopia.
Buys the other contenders more time to step their games up.
Cal and Stanford are not going to be joining this new Pac-12. There is an academic prestige issue involved. They didn't want to join the Big 12 for that reason. Zero chance that Stanford would put itself in the conference with these Mountain West schools.
One word to Stanford and Cal. EFFEM. And I'm not talking about a radio band.
I second that.
I had to stare at this a minute before I got it. Nice!
The ACC could implode, too. If Cal and Stanford had gonads they could have led the new Pac. Add SDSU, CSU, and perhaps choose hugh academic places like Rice, SMU, Tulane. They coulda been a contender!
If the ACC completely implodes, I suspect the Bay Area schools would get a lifeline to an even larger Big Ten Conference.
They will TRY. But do these academic institutions really wAnna put their student-arlthletes through that shitty travel?
Agree. They go independent before coming back
With all the angst about whether Cal or Stanford would join a conference with Fresno State and Boise State, I wonder about two things. First, have they maybe learned a lesson that putting their own student-athletes through travel and logistic hell runs counter to their "student-first" mantra? And second, isn't league association only for athletics? What does playing baseball against Boise State have to do with academic reputations and partnerships?
Exactly. Snob mom dragging her kid away from the sandlot on the other side of the tracks, "Come away Reginald, you mustn't be seen playing with those ruffians! It's off to boarding school for you. Tut, tut."
I think Cal will be coming back to the Pac12 for sure, and possibly even Stanford. I have never bought into the 'it's about academics' argument. Reality is it sports, and they have become separated from each other, for better or worse. Thanks for the great news John, you just made a lot of Beaver and Cougar fans happy tonight!
I suppose the next question is, what's the media value of those 6 (for now) schools? What does Mr. Thompson (former Fox media guy) think? Enough to keep budgets balanced? I love keeping the PAC alive!
Thank you for staying on top of this, John! You and Wilner gave us a heads up almost a week before the event. This is what many of us thought made sense since the PAC12 breakup last year. Now, as you have suggested, buy some time with the NCAA and wait for the others to come to the PAC12 at the next realignment, perhaps with the help of the CW
Cal isn't coming back. Major donors have stated they would not give money if Cal is not in the P4. This refurbished Pac 12 media rights won't be as high as the P4 as well. So the money won't be there for Cal to sustain its large athletic department. But I'm very happy for OSU and WSU. I hope they can add 2-4 more teams and become the strongest conference it can be.
If the Big 12 is considered P5, then this new Pac 12 will be as well.
So we’re basically splitting into Mountain West A and Mountain West B? This is still relegation unless the majority of the teams in the new conference come from Power 4 stock.
Curious why not UNLV?
LV has a good TV market, but UNLV hasn’t done a good job supporting its programs. I think schools have to be willing to increase spending, and they may not be willing as of now.
With this initial move it finally gives the PAC some leverage. Other MWC teams not wanting to get left behind would most certainly take smaller revenue sharing to get into the new PAC-12 (if the PAC had any mutual interest).
I am curious, Why UNLV? What would UNLV bring to the party
In a New York second, if the state of Nevada and more importantly, the $billionaiires who really run the state from the entertainment industry, believe a larger sports footprint would gain tourists and $$$, then you would see resources unimaginable, pour into the endeavor. Things can happen fast.
UNLV is a future play. Big market. Splashy. But right now, not competitive (although football is looking better).
If the Pac12 is looking for more MWC schools, I would say Air Force would be better than UNLV. As an Armed Service Academy, they would bring a larger audience not tied to a geographic area like the other MWC schools.
Their headed for the AAC with Army, Navy. Soon to be renamed ACL Tare League
Look at their ratings. Big market, small fish. Plus they're hundreds of millions shy in sports infrastructure and support. Just not going to happen. They get one more good season. Hope they beat Kansas. But after that the gig is up for the coach and their future. Sorry.
Agreed. Sorta like Arizona State. Always a sleeping giant. Never wakes up.
May be other MWC Schools including UNLV. But there may be issues with UNLV and UNR being tied at the hip through Nevada law. Don't think UNR brings anything to the PAC12.