Feb 22, 2023·edited Feb 22, 2023Liked by John Canzano
In my lifetime Gonzaga went from a team I never heard of growing up (in Medford), ...to a Cinderella sweet sixteener, ...to literally be the best and most popular team to have not won a title.
Simply outstanding.
However, will they become Duke? Or Georgetown? I don't think this is more thank tire kicking at this point.
Wilner summed it up well in his piece on Gonzaga. The big questions you have to ask are how long will Few still be there (he's 60), and can they remain a brand name program once he's gone? It's a gamble given what it would cost to get them. I'm not sure I blame the Pac for passing if it really is a bidding war.
Not sure how the Zags move the needle from a broadcast revenue standpoint, given the location. Also not sure the “brand” will remain valuable for long after Mark Few retires.
GU no doubt has been studying and planning for years as to how best capitalize on their success and also position themselves for a post-Few future. Trying to play power 5 conferences against each other could be part of that master plan. But I don’t see how the $ works for the Big 12 or PAC-12 by adding a basketball school.
Gonzaga makes so much sense to benefit them and the Pac11?, that certainly the bumbling Pac leadership won’t do it because research, prestige, or some stupid reason that will lead to the death of the conference.
" The typical Pac-12 team averages about 200,000 viewers"....any and all Pac-12 basketball teams are encumbered by the ridiculous PAC12 Network availability, which is near zero here in Arizona. Comcast is not a big player here and they are the only AZ provider to carry the PAC12. Charter is not an AZ provider. I personally use Hulu. I can only get the local Pac12 games when some local station buys the broadcast rights for ASU or Arizona
Of course I have....I know you can stream just about anything if you have the money to pay all the subscriptions ($1000s a month). But I won't. I am paying my $100 for cable access and that is all I am going to pay. If PAC12 Networks can't find a way to get on the providers everyone uses, that is why they have only 200K viewers, which was the point of my post.
And I love guys who have no clue what they are talking about but prattle on regardless.
On my Hulu account with the ESPN sports Plus package, I receive every conference in the country except for the PAC12. My point is that PAC12 has cut itself off from all the mainstream providers by its "go it alone" strategy. Stupid. This is why the PAC12 has such low payouts. As John said, the average BB game gets 200K viewers. If they followed the same approach as all the other major programs, the average eyeballs would be a lot higher. I am like anyone else, I will only watch what I already am paying for
John, like you say with all teams. In this case it's the Pac12. What is there identity? What do they want their identity to be? The feel like the Pac needs to bet on culture and unity. Focus on what's important to the west coast and Pac fans. Who is leading and what is the plan? Show us a vision George or find someone who can.
I get the arguments from an athletics standpoint, and that's all well and good. But have we lost sight of the fact that we're talking about institutions of higher learning? Places whose primary mission is supposed to be education? Or is the tail wagging the dog and we're supposed to nod knowingly and acquiesce to that reality?
I'd like to know how the educational mission of Gonzaga and other institutions will be impacted by any moves made? Shouldn't that be part- perhaps the primary part- of the equation? Or am I just being horribly naïve?
There’s no way Gonzaga gets added to P12 for men’s hoops only. An admission to P12 for Zags means the institution sees the value of improving its entire athletic programs AND the profile of the university. And then would P12 want a non-football school cutting into its new contract?
Gonzaga may not have football - but their baseball programme is solid, in addition to women's hoops. I'd welcome them to the PAC and - though not a graduate I did study there Freshman year before transferring to UO - would hate to see them join the Big12 or any other conference. And for those who fear decline when Few retires - they were a premier programme before he took the reigns.
No guarantee Gonzaga retains its value after Few leaves and has already dropped slightly after Tommy Lloyd left. I avoid buying stocks at the top of their market price and Gonzaga feels like a stock that has little upside left and a ton of downside coming shortly to me.
So, if Boise State, Fresno State, and some others are off the football table for not meeting "academic and research institution criteria," how could Pac presidents rationalize adding Gonzaga basketball?
Notre Dame I believe still plays basketball in the ACC so why can't Gonzaga and St. Mary's play in the Pac? In fact maybe what we need is to add schools like UNR, Hawaii, Boise, Fresno State, etc. just to our football ledger. That way we do not have to deal with academics or a fair share of the money for new schools. If people do not get creative our goose is cooked...beats adding SMU who no one could care about plus I personally do not like getting involved with any entity from TexAss.
Well, I actually live in TexAss (less than a mile from SMU) and we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.
SMU is in a major market, draws a decent crowd for teams no one really cares about and in the past, when they were in a desirable conference (years ago) they drew good crowds.
They have an exceptionally wealthy alumni base and are in the middle of an expansion of their stadium.
The biggest trouble Jack is that we have no history with SMU. It might as well be Martian U in a way. Cal which has struggled lately always had our biggest crowds for UCLA or SC, excluding the Big Game. As a fan I would be more interested in SDSU, Boise State, or even Fresno or UNR, at least we know who those guys are and have some small history with them. Provincialism at its worst but the conference and basically all of college football no longer cares about fans, just TV revenue sadly.
Not a bad thought but other than SDSU I don't think the other schools move the dial on media revenue, which is going to be critical for this Conference to survive.
I suspect (or at least hope) the Conference is getting some feedback on the markets to target by whomever it might be they are negotiating with.
Notre dame brings a HUGE media footprint where ever they go. You can't compare Notre Dame's situation and ANYONE else's. Hell they have their own network...(NBC)
Gonzaga & St Mary's do not want to abandon their other programs with a MBB move only. Now, the Zags WBB & baseball programs could hold their own, but overall, the comp of Notre Dame, which is an ACC member for everything but FB, and plays ~5 ACC games, is not a good comp.
a MBB only move is not permissible under NCAA rules. ND and BYU are independent so their other teams can play in a conference. However, if GU joins another conference in hoops they have to go all in. SMC is financially strapped at an institution and department (their last AD left because the administration refused to use funds to build a new arena), so moving conferences is not a feasible option for them.
It's also not possible under current Pac-12 rules, that require football, except for associate members (like some of the wrestling-only members), and they don't get shares of media-drive revenue distributions. And there is no reason for Gonzaga to pursue it except for the increased revenue.
NCAA and conference rules can and have been revised over time, but its not a quick and instantaneous process.
Great Stuff as per usual! I can’t blame the Zags for creating a bidding war. That’s life in business. And D1 College sports are now completely a business (I know... a captain obvious statement).
Wait for the big 10 on fox to go south like the wwe on fox, then usc and ucla will be pleading for the pac-12 to return. The whole big 10 expansion was based on wishful thinking on television rights, reality will be different.
In my lifetime Gonzaga went from a team I never heard of growing up (in Medford), ...to a Cinderella sweet sixteener, ...to literally be the best and most popular team to have not won a title.
Simply outstanding.
However, will they become Duke? Or Georgetown? I don't think this is more thank tire kicking at this point.
Is Georgetown even Georgetown anymore?
Nope. But that was my point.
Wilner summed it up well in his piece on Gonzaga. The big questions you have to ask are how long will Few still be there (he's 60), and can they remain a brand name program once he's gone? It's a gamble given what it would cost to get them. I'm not sure I blame the Pac for passing if it really is a bidding war.
Not sure how the Zags move the needle from a broadcast revenue standpoint, given the location. Also not sure the “brand” will remain valuable for long after Mark Few retires.
Big question on the post-Few Zags... do you leave the safety of the WCC in front of that? I don't. But let's see how it plays out.
GU no doubt has been studying and planning for years as to how best capitalize on their success and also position themselves for a post-Few future. Trying to play power 5 conferences against each other could be part of that master plan. But I don’t see how the $ works for the Big 12 or PAC-12 by adding a basketball school.
Gonzaga makes so much sense to benefit them and the Pac11?, that certainly the bumbling Pac leadership won’t do it because research, prestige, or some stupid reason that will lead to the death of the conference.
Are they planning on starting a Football program anytime soon???
" The typical Pac-12 team averages about 200,000 viewers"....any and all Pac-12 basketball teams are encumbered by the ridiculous PAC12 Network availability, which is near zero here in Arizona. Comcast is not a big player here and they are the only AZ provider to carry the PAC12. Charter is not an AZ provider. I personally use Hulu. I can only get the local Pac12 games when some local station buys the broadcast rights for ASU or Arizona
You can get all PAC 12 games on Fubo.
I don't need another network...I am not a fan of having 30 or 40 monthly subscriptions so I can watch what I want
Not another service but maybe a different service would be a better fit for you. You can turn most off and on as needed. That is what I do.
Have you considered just subscribing during the months the content is available that you enjoy.
I agree this chasing content gets a little tiring, but it does work.
Of course I have....I know you can stream just about anything if you have the money to pay all the subscriptions ($1000s a month). But I won't. I am paying my $100 for cable access and that is all I am going to pay. If PAC12 Networks can't find a way to get on the providers everyone uses, that is why they have only 200K viewers, which was the point of my post.
LOLOL...I love guys whining about not getting the service they want, and yet in the same breath saying they refuse to pay what it takes to get it. WOW
And I love guys who have no clue what they are talking about but prattle on regardless.
On my Hulu account with the ESPN sports Plus package, I receive every conference in the country except for the PAC12. My point is that PAC12 has cut itself off from all the mainstream providers by its "go it alone" strategy. Stupid. This is why the PAC12 has such low payouts. As John said, the average BB game gets 200K viewers. If they followed the same approach as all the other major programs, the average eyeballs would be a lot higher. I am like anyone else, I will only watch what I already am paying for
And some semblance of this is the case with many (not all, but many) customers.
which is where I am
I have a number of streaming services and they don't really cost that much, collectively.
I also have the issue of having 2 teenagers in the house and they primarily use their phones or ipads to watch "TV".
They use their TV to play video games.
Go figure.
I understand your desire to get everything in one spot.
At my age (65), I sometimes stare at the Apps on the Roku screen and try to remember where the heck the show was I watched last night.
John, like you say with all teams. In this case it's the Pac12. What is there identity? What do they want their identity to be? The feel like the Pac needs to bet on culture and unity. Focus on what's important to the west coast and Pac fans. Who is leading and what is the plan? Show us a vision George or find someone who can.
I get the arguments from an athletics standpoint, and that's all well and good. But have we lost sight of the fact that we're talking about institutions of higher learning? Places whose primary mission is supposed to be education? Or is the tail wagging the dog and we're supposed to nod knowingly and acquiesce to that reality?
I'd like to know how the educational mission of Gonzaga and other institutions will be impacted by any moves made? Shouldn't that be part- perhaps the primary part- of the equation? Or am I just being horribly naïve?
There’s no way Gonzaga gets added to P12 for men’s hoops only. An admission to P12 for Zags means the institution sees the value of improving its entire athletic programs AND the profile of the university. And then would P12 want a non-football school cutting into its new contract?
Gonzaga may not have football - but their baseball programme is solid, in addition to women's hoops. I'd welcome them to the PAC and - though not a graduate I did study there Freshman year before transferring to UO - would hate to see them join the Big12 or any other conference. And for those who fear decline when Few retires - they were a premier programme before he took the reigns.
No guarantee Gonzaga retains its value after Few leaves and has already dropped slightly after Tommy Lloyd left. I avoid buying stocks at the top of their market price and Gonzaga feels like a stock that has little upside left and a ton of downside coming shortly to me.
Maybe school leadership feels the same way and are looking to capitalize.
I think you are correct!
So, if Boise State, Fresno State, and some others are off the football table for not meeting "academic and research institution criteria," how could Pac presidents rationalize adding Gonzaga basketball?
This isn't the squad to be shopping the BRAND to the highest bidder. Continue to be the Big Fish in the small pond, that underdelivers every March.
Notre Dame I believe still plays basketball in the ACC so why can't Gonzaga and St. Mary's play in the Pac? In fact maybe what we need is to add schools like UNR, Hawaii, Boise, Fresno State, etc. just to our football ledger. That way we do not have to deal with academics or a fair share of the money for new schools. If people do not get creative our goose is cooked...beats adding SMU who no one could care about plus I personally do not like getting involved with any entity from TexAss.
Well, I actually live in TexAss (less than a mile from SMU) and we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.
SMU is in a major market, draws a decent crowd for teams no one really cares about and in the past, when they were in a desirable conference (years ago) they drew good crowds.
They have an exceptionally wealthy alumni base and are in the middle of an expansion of their stadium.
The biggest trouble Jack is that we have no history with SMU. It might as well be Martian U in a way. Cal which has struggled lately always had our biggest crowds for UCLA or SC, excluding the Big Game. As a fan I would be more interested in SDSU, Boise State, or even Fresno or UNR, at least we know who those guys are and have some small history with them. Provincialism at its worst but the conference and basically all of college football no longer cares about fans, just TV revenue sadly.
Not a bad thought but other than SDSU I don't think the other schools move the dial on media revenue, which is going to be critical for this Conference to survive.
I suspect (or at least hope) the Conference is getting some feedback on the markets to target by whomever it might be they are negotiating with.
SMU has the money to make this work.
Notre dame brings a HUGE media footprint where ever they go. You can't compare Notre Dame's situation and ANYONE else's. Hell they have their own network...(NBC)
Gonzaga & St Mary's do not want to abandon their other programs with a MBB move only. Now, the Zags WBB & baseball programs could hold their own, but overall, the comp of Notre Dame, which is an ACC member for everything but FB, and plays ~5 ACC games, is not a good comp.
a MBB only move is not permissible under NCAA rules. ND and BYU are independent so their other teams can play in a conference. However, if GU joins another conference in hoops they have to go all in. SMC is financially strapped at an institution and department (their last AD left because the administration refused to use funds to build a new arena), so moving conferences is not a feasible option for them.
It's also not possible under current Pac-12 rules, that require football, except for associate members (like some of the wrestling-only members), and they don't get shares of media-drive revenue distributions. And there is no reason for Gonzaga to pursue it except for the increased revenue.
NCAA and conference rules can and have been revised over time, but its not a quick and instantaneous process.
Am I the only one that feels the academics in charge of PAC schools will deliberate to paralysis and watch another opportunity go by?
Great Stuff as per usual! I can’t blame the Zags for creating a bidding war. That’s life in business. And D1 College sports are now completely a business (I know... a captain obvious statement).
Wait for the big 10 on fox to go south like the wwe on fox, then usc and ucla will be pleading for the pac-12 to return. The whole big 10 expansion was based on wishful thinking on television rights, reality will be different.