Absolutely stupid law. This is why people lose faith in legislators who try to fix everything with a law as if that will be the answer. You hit the nail on the head, John. It starts in the home with parents teaching their kids common sense decency and with others who object to those who do these things and are quick to apologize to those offended. Kids make mistakes which are teachable moments.
We adopted our daughter from Korea. She came home in tears one day saying some fifth grade boys made fun of her "slant eyes." I went to the school, found out who these boys were and through the principal we had a meeting with them and their parents. We simply talked to the boys about why this type of behavior was wrong. It's now years later and I met one of the boys recently who is now a grown man with his own kids. He said he never forgot that conversation and it changed his entire attitude toward others. This is how we do it....not through some law that punishes the wrong people.
'Nothing is more dangerous than a legislative body in session.' Mark Twain - Ditto from 3/20/23
John, please inform your readers as to whether the solon who introduced this nonsense calls you back, or not.
Thank you for doing your part to help rein in this stupidity. The small group of students' behavior was atrocious but as you so well noted it need not be responded to by more stupidity.
Our lawmakers should stick to what’s important not the ridiculous. Her time would be better served in teaching parents of college students a class on accountability, kindness and respect to fellow human beings and how to have good old fashioned fun..like cheering for your team. Lord help us!!!!
You mean that a head coach and AD can’t control 50k worth of individuals? Lol! What a joke! Further, the legislation just proposed by a state rep from Independence Oregon to require universities to have state legislative approval by vote to change leagues or divisions is about stupid as well. Thoughts?
Saw that. Washington proposed similar legislation in this session, but backed away after the universities (UW and WSU) expressed that it was unnecessary.
I enjoy your articles. I'm also a BYU fan. Oregon handled it perfectly and the issue should have been over at that point. Absolutely a stupid proposal for a law.
While stadium security personnel can evict unruly patrons (not just students), is there a corresponding need to kick butts and take/publish names? The kind of behavior exhibited at the BYU game proof-positive of symptomatic bigotry learned at home. Until I wised up, my father was the source of all my religious, political racial, et.al, biases.
I'm sorry - but Oregon lawmakers do some of the dumbest things of any state in the nation. We have a drug crisis, homeless crisis, businesses are closing, but the real focus should be a handful of drunk fans at a football game?
I'm a former Duck fball season ticket holder- we had unruly fans every so often around us. Usually because of alcohol consumption. I never once thought of the coach or ad being responsible. Why? Because they weren't.
This is stupidity ×10 and needs to be dropped and forgotten.
If the legislature decides to hold a coach responsible for the unruly and bad behavior of the home fans, then shall we hold the representatives of all Oregon counties responsible for the unruly criminals that live in their countries? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it?…..just like the bill Rep. Bynum has proposed.Let’s hope common sense wins here.
The problem isn't that the great majority don't do the odious behavior. The problem is that the great majority watch and don't stop the odious behavior. And the only way to drive it out, be it racist, misogynist, or homophobic, is to create a penalty that hurts collectively. And this does it. How many of these chants do you think you'll get if people know they're highest paid asset won't be on the sideline. I'm guessing they'll stop and the culture will stop.
I wrote a book on campus racism, and the reason why there's no laws is because they typically individualize each incident, and therefore are always reacting instead of being proactive. If I think something is a series of isolated incidents, then I don't think I have a problem. So why would I need a law?
I agree John, kick out the offenders, but the problem at U of O is that they have not indicated that they have done any of that. I addressed the school twice about this behavior (first time was a year earlier when they chanted eff the huskies over and over very loudly). All I got were canned responses that they would be investigating the behavior. A public apology from the University is not enough.
If the problem is systemic, then our 'higher educational' model is not valid at all, is it? Perhaps, instead of promoting capitalism, Wokiness--political correctness, academic aggression, one might want to work on kindness and civility. You set high standards and let the 'chips' fall where they may. There is fact, if you expect nothing and cater to the masses (unfiltered, immature young folks) then how can you expect a better society?
Again, I wrote a book on campus racism and I lecture on it. For all of this talk about 'wokeness,' the problem is that every four years, a new cohort of students come on campus, under educated about racist, misogynist, and homophobic behavior, and then repeat the same acts that their parents and grandparents did. All because they aren't 'woke' to what racism, misogyny, and homophobia are.
There's a mistake when people think that kindness and civility are the determining factors on behavior. Nice kids, who open doors for the elderly, say 'sir' and 'ma'am' are often the first ones chanting some odious things centered on race, sex, sexual orientation etc. And afterward, and believe me, I've collected thousands of examples because they never stop, all claim ignorance. Or that their intent was harmless.
The high standards is what this law would do. To those who receive the most money comes the most responsibility. AND...it then makes the coach and AD PROACTIVE in stopping behavior that they would have ignored, if they're the ones being penalized. Let the peers in the stands do the rest.
Alpha, I hear you and wholly agree this is odious behavior. But I 100% disagree with you on a ‘collective hurt’ solution. Collective hurt is effective in certain environments (Military training for example) but I’m afraid not here. The law of unintended consequences might eventually rear its ugly head if this legislation is passed. Give a fan base a way to injure another fan base. Yeah, there might be some knuckleheads ready to gin up trouble. Over time, we might also find that certain words used that are not considered harmful today, 5 to 10 years on, are considered so. The government should not be in the game of controlling speech, except when that speech causes collective harm to one’s physical body (such as crying ‘fire’ in a crowded theater)
Matt with all due respect I am a Marine. I am an old 76-year-old Marine but a Marine nevertheless. I witnessed both in my time in service and later as a 'civilian' any number of people whose behavior was despicable to be changed for the better by their experience in the Corps.
Self-esteem? I'm all for it but it needs to be coupled with discipline. I am not and never will be in favor of any law that punishes 3rd parties for other peoples' behavior.
I am 100% with you and against laws that attempt to control speech. And I hope you agree with me that there should be no prior restraint on speech for people attending a sporting event but that people who abuse the privilege should be ejected.
Hey there Devil Dog… US Army vet here, have served alongside some very fine USMC, in theatre. I’m a better person due to collective punishment in Uncle Sam’s green machine. There’s a time and a place for that, and have seen some tremendous esprit de corps come out the other side when the suffering is together.
Totally agree that if you’re part of crowd (or individual) chanting anti religious or racist speech at a sporting event, ejection is fully warranted. I’m for the school doing that, just not at the tip of a government spear.
agree this should be up to administrators and game officials to manage. If an official hears something on the field or from the stands they should stop the game so that stadium administrators can deal with it and have the offenders removed.
That said it is interesting that some fan bases have worse reputations than others. Maybe we need to give more focus on the positives. How many of know that the California Golden Bears women's basketball team won the 2022 PAC 12 sportsmanship award?
Would you support legislation which held university department heads, teaching staff, or presidents being docked salary or even being dismissed should students be found to have violated campus speech and conduct codes? For example, students using vulgarity, threats of violence, and shutting down disfavored speakers.
Loved this comment. But you will never fix STUPID. It matters not how many laws are passed; idiots will always judge people by their color, beliefs, sexual preference, etc.
This is very sad but this is the plane of existence in which we live. Many believe in a better plane of existence; many do not. I appreciate what you are doing to make this plane a better place in which to exist.
'The arc of the universe moves slowly but it does move toward justice.' MLK, Jr.
Can't agree on this one alpha1906. The offenders are most likely inebriated louts. We don't know if they were chastised by other fans to sit down and shut up or get out. If it was a small group, certainly security should have ejected them. I'd go further with suspensions for the students. The coaches and the AD's have zero control in this situation. One more consideration - the rules have to be communicated clearly. Just because any reasonable person knows the chant was objectionable (understatement), did the drunken kids know it would get them ejected? Where is the line? Could those same kids yell F**k BYU and be allowed to stay? As I write this, I can't help thinking that this is yet another example of societal decline in America. What is acceptable behavior and foul language from politicians and other leaders is teaching next generations that we as a group tolerate this.
Everyone always blames alcohol or social media or something except MAYBE these students do things like this year after year because they're in an environment that enables it.
And even in your response, I see the same pattern: Kids. Alcohol. Individualize.
This is what happens when you ignore the systemic issues. Don't want lawmakers making laws on it? Don't throw your hands up and say, 'what can we do?' They'll show you what they can do when inaction is the norm.
I like your example of the player who was disenchanted. I'm not sure who 'everyone' is in your reply. I didn't intend to individualize anyone. I simply disagree with the idea that a coach or administrator should be suspended for the actions of louts (drunken or not). Define the systemic issues you mention and let's have a civilized debate on it. I'm open to listening.
Alpha is correct. Its actually an attempt at peer pressuring, not shifting blame. In soccer they will empty stadiums or the players walk off field. Since prejudiced fans generally dont like to be blamed by their peers for harm brought to their team, they stop chanting. I think this BYU incident is a particularly poor example since the stadium doesnt seem to have a wider chanting problem. But the proposed law is not ridiculous blame shifting. Its potentially even clever peer pressuring.
My wish is that it was a school policy rather than state government. The school should say that players and coaches will walk off field. That would seem to harm innocents, including coach and administrators. But it would stop any chanting and no further harm to said innocents.
Absolutely stupid law. This is why people lose faith in legislators who try to fix everything with a law as if that will be the answer. You hit the nail on the head, John. It starts in the home with parents teaching their kids common sense decency and with others who object to those who do these things and are quick to apologize to those offended. Kids make mistakes which are teachable moments.
We adopted our daughter from Korea. She came home in tears one day saying some fifth grade boys made fun of her "slant eyes." I went to the school, found out who these boys were and through the principal we had a meeting with them and their parents. We simply talked to the boys about why this type of behavior was wrong. It's now years later and I met one of the boys recently who is now a grown man with his own kids. He said he never forgot that conversation and it changed his entire attitude toward others. This is how we do it....not through some law that punishes the wrong people.
'Nothing is more dangerous than a legislative body in session.' Mark Twain - Ditto from 3/20/23
John, please inform your readers as to whether the solon who introduced this nonsense calls you back, or not.
Thank you for doing your part to help rein in this stupidity. The small group of students' behavior was atrocious but as you so well noted it need not be responded to by more stupidity.
Thanks JJ.
The absurdity of Oregon’s legislature never ceases to amaze me.
I'm a little puzzled by the whole thing.
Our lawmakers should stick to what’s important not the ridiculous. Her time would be better served in teaching parents of college students a class on accountability, kindness and respect to fellow human beings and how to have good old fashioned fun..like cheering for your team. Lord help us!!!!
John,
You mean that a head coach and AD can’t control 50k worth of individuals? Lol! What a joke! Further, the legislation just proposed by a state rep from Independence Oregon to require universities to have state legislative approval by vote to change leagues or divisions is about stupid as well. Thoughts?
Saw that. Washington proposed similar legislation in this session, but backed away after the universities (UW and WSU) expressed that it was unnecessary.
Sounds like a please don’t leave me behind legislation!
I have nothing nice to say so...
Thank you for your sane and logical response to this silly proposal from Rep. Bynum.
I enjoy your articles. I'm also a BYU fan. Oregon handled it perfectly and the issue should have been over at that point. Absolutely a stupid proposal for a law.
While stadium security personnel can evict unruly patrons (not just students), is there a corresponding need to kick butts and take/publish names? The kind of behavior exhibited at the BYU game proof-positive of symptomatic bigotry learned at home. Until I wised up, my father was the source of all my religious, political racial, et.al, biases.
I'm sorry - but Oregon lawmakers do some of the dumbest things of any state in the nation. We have a drug crisis, homeless crisis, businesses are closing, but the real focus should be a handful of drunk fans at a football game?
I'm a former Duck fball season ticket holder- we had unruly fans every so often around us. Usually because of alcohol consumption. I never once thought of the coach or ad being responsible. Why? Because they weren't.
This is stupidity ×10 and needs to be dropped and forgotten.
Something ridiculous from the Oregon legislature? What a surprise!!
If the legislature decides to hold a coach responsible for the unruly and bad behavior of the home fans, then shall we hold the representatives of all Oregon counties responsible for the unruly criminals that live in their countries? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it?…..just like the bill Rep. Bynum has proposed.Let’s hope common sense wins here.
WELL SAID!
The problem isn't that the great majority don't do the odious behavior. The problem is that the great majority watch and don't stop the odious behavior. And the only way to drive it out, be it racist, misogynist, or homophobic, is to create a penalty that hurts collectively. And this does it. How many of these chants do you think you'll get if people know they're highest paid asset won't be on the sideline. I'm guessing they'll stop and the culture will stop.
I hear you... but college football is played in 50 states. I find it curious that there is no precedent for this law in any other state.
No precedent because there is no reason to have precedence. Can’t believe this is what our legislators spend their time and our money on.
I wrote a book on campus racism, and the reason why there's no laws is because they typically individualize each incident, and therefore are always reacting instead of being proactive. If I think something is a series of isolated incidents, then I don't think I have a problem. So why would I need a law?
It's not an individualized matter. It's a matter of decency, civility and stadium rules. Kick out the offenders. Immediately. Ban them. No law needed.
I agree John, kick out the offenders, but the problem at U of O is that they have not indicated that they have done any of that. I addressed the school twice about this behavior (first time was a year earlier when they chanted eff the huskies over and over very loudly). All I got were canned responses that they would be investigating the behavior. A public apology from the University is not enough.
And if the issue is systemic? Then what? Just keep trying to find the perpetrators? Empty the stadiums like they do in European football?
If the problem is systemic, then our 'higher educational' model is not valid at all, is it? Perhaps, instead of promoting capitalism, Wokiness--political correctness, academic aggression, one might want to work on kindness and civility. You set high standards and let the 'chips' fall where they may. There is fact, if you expect nothing and cater to the masses (unfiltered, immature young folks) then how can you expect a better society?
Again, I wrote a book on campus racism and I lecture on it. For all of this talk about 'wokeness,' the problem is that every four years, a new cohort of students come on campus, under educated about racist, misogynist, and homophobic behavior, and then repeat the same acts that their parents and grandparents did. All because they aren't 'woke' to what racism, misogyny, and homophobia are.
There's a mistake when people think that kindness and civility are the determining factors on behavior. Nice kids, who open doors for the elderly, say 'sir' and 'ma'am' are often the first ones chanting some odious things centered on race, sex, sexual orientation etc. And afterward, and believe me, I've collected thousands of examples because they never stop, all claim ignorance. Or that their intent was harmless.
The high standards is what this law would do. To those who receive the most money comes the most responsibility. AND...it then makes the coach and AD PROACTIVE in stopping behavior that they would have ignored, if they're the ones being penalized. Let the peers in the stands do the rest.
Alpha, I hear you and wholly agree this is odious behavior. But I 100% disagree with you on a ‘collective hurt’ solution. Collective hurt is effective in certain environments (Military training for example) but I’m afraid not here. The law of unintended consequences might eventually rear its ugly head if this legislation is passed. Give a fan base a way to injure another fan base. Yeah, there might be some knuckleheads ready to gin up trouble. Over time, we might also find that certain words used that are not considered harmful today, 5 to 10 years on, are considered so. The government should not be in the game of controlling speech, except when that speech causes collective harm to one’s physical body (such as crying ‘fire’ in a crowded theater)
Matt with all due respect I am a Marine. I am an old 76-year-old Marine but a Marine nevertheless. I witnessed both in my time in service and later as a 'civilian' any number of people whose behavior was despicable to be changed for the better by their experience in the Corps.
Self-esteem? I'm all for it but it needs to be coupled with discipline. I am not and never will be in favor of any law that punishes 3rd parties for other peoples' behavior.
I am 100% with you and against laws that attempt to control speech. And I hope you agree with me that there should be no prior restraint on speech for people attending a sporting event but that people who abuse the privilege should be ejected.
Hey there Devil Dog… US Army vet here, have served alongside some very fine USMC, in theatre. I’m a better person due to collective punishment in Uncle Sam’s green machine. There’s a time and a place for that, and have seen some tremendous esprit de corps come out the other side when the suffering is together.
Totally agree that if you’re part of crowd (or individual) chanting anti religious or racist speech at a sporting event, ejection is fully warranted. I’m for the school doing that, just not at the tip of a government spear.
agree this should be up to administrators and game officials to manage. If an official hears something on the field or from the stands they should stop the game so that stadium administrators can deal with it and have the offenders removed.
That said it is interesting that some fan bases have worse reputations than others. Maybe we need to give more focus on the positives. How many of know that the California Golden Bears women's basketball team won the 2022 PAC 12 sportsmanship award?
As a Cal alum, I knew it. LOL
Alpha,
Would you support legislation which held university department heads, teaching staff, or presidents being docked salary or even being dismissed should students be found to have violated campus speech and conduct codes? For example, students using vulgarity, threats of violence, and shutting down disfavored speakers.
Ah...a classic slippery slope fallacy.
Loved this comment. But you will never fix STUPID. It matters not how many laws are passed; idiots will always judge people by their color, beliefs, sexual preference, etc.
This is very sad but this is the plane of existence in which we live. Many believe in a better plane of existence; many do not. I appreciate what you are doing to make this plane a better place in which to exist.
'The arc of the universe moves slowly but it does move toward justice.' MLK, Jr.
Can't agree on this one alpha1906. The offenders are most likely inebriated louts. We don't know if they were chastised by other fans to sit down and shut up or get out. If it was a small group, certainly security should have ejected them. I'd go further with suspensions for the students. The coaches and the AD's have zero control in this situation. One more consideration - the rules have to be communicated clearly. Just because any reasonable person knows the chant was objectionable (understatement), did the drunken kids know it would get them ejected? Where is the line? Could those same kids yell F**k BYU and be allowed to stay? As I write this, I can't help thinking that this is yet another example of societal decline in America. What is acceptable behavior and foul language from politicians and other leaders is teaching next generations that we as a group tolerate this.
Everyone always blames alcohol or social media or something except MAYBE these students do things like this year after year because they're in an environment that enables it.
And even in your response, I see the same pattern: Kids. Alcohol. Individualize.
This is what happens when you ignore the systemic issues. Don't want lawmakers making laws on it? Don't throw your hands up and say, 'what can we do?' They'll show you what they can do when inaction is the norm.
I like your example of the player who was disenchanted. I'm not sure who 'everyone' is in your reply. I didn't intend to individualize anyone. I simply disagree with the idea that a coach or administrator should be suspended for the actions of louts (drunken or not). Define the systemic issues you mention and let's have a civilized debate on it. I'm open to listening.
I just did a quick search: Oregon Fans...and then put in 2000-2021. First article is from 2013.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1830873-oregon-football-3-biggest-takeaways-from-former-ducks-rant-against-fans
Alpha is correct. Its actually an attempt at peer pressuring, not shifting blame. In soccer they will empty stadiums or the players walk off field. Since prejudiced fans generally dont like to be blamed by their peers for harm brought to their team, they stop chanting. I think this BYU incident is a particularly poor example since the stadium doesnt seem to have a wider chanting problem. But the proposed law is not ridiculous blame shifting. Its potentially even clever peer pressuring.
My wish is that it was a school policy rather than state government. The school should say that players and coaches will walk off field. That would seem to harm innocents, including coach and administrators. But it would stop any chanting and no further harm to said innocents.
I guess there is a little stupid in everybody...especially in elected officials from Clackamas
Spot on, JC.